Loot Rules + Aina in Northrend
12/31/08
Aina (Janishta) bashes heads with someone ("xxx") on AIM over loot rules.
xxx (2:09:09 AM): i think the whole dkp system is overrated and antiquated, but hey, it seems that some people still feel the need to hold fast to some aspects of the old 40 man raids
Janishta (2:09:22 AM): I support EPGP
Janishta (2:09:54 AM): I'd rather have a good group to raid with rather than QQing about how unfair the loot system is
xxx (2:09:57 AM): its a ghost of the 40 man days
Janishta (2:09:59 AM): at least it's not loot council or favoritism
Janishta (2:10:02 AM): I don't care.
Janishta (2:10:08 AM): I can't have everything
Janishta (2:10:13 AM): so I'm gonna pick what I value most.
xxx (2:11:15 AM): maybe someday you will understand, understand just what dkp can do to a guild
xxx (2:11:44 AM): and what it can do to people involved with it
Janishta (2:12:03 AM): I
Janishta (2:12:04 AM): have
Janishta (2:12:05 AM): been
Janishta (2:12:05 AM): in
Janishta (2:12:06 AM): many
Janishta (2:12:07 AM): guilds
Janishta (2:12:07 AM): with
Janishta (2:12:08 AM): many
Janishta (2:12:09 AM): different
Janishta (2:12:10 AM): loot
Janishta (2:12:10 AM): systems.
Janishta (2:12:14 AM): I
Janishta (2:12:15 AM): did
Janishta (2:12:15 AM): not
Janishta (2:12:16 AM): say
Janishta (2:12:17 AM): I support
Janishta (2:12:18 AM): dkp
Janishta (2:12:19 AM): .
xxx (2:14:22 AM): i just hope you do come to understand why I have my stance on DKP and all of its derivative looting and raid attendance systems
Janishta (2:14:55 AM): I don't know where you got the idea that I have any problem with you not liking DKP or JR's rules.
xxx (2:15:24 AM): its not about that
Janishta (2:15:28 AM): ...
xxx (2:16:34 AM): what I am saying is this, DKP and all similar forms of looting priority systems need to be retired, period
Janishta (2:16:51 AM): good luck making that happen.
xxx (2:17:54 AM): what I instead support is a probation period/ necessity system
Janishta (2:18:24 AM): necessity system?
xxx (2:19:03 AM): loot distribution would be based on main spec and comparison of raider's gear
Janishta (2:19:19 AM): Loot council without the theoretical bias.
xxx (2:19:44 AM): basically
Janishta (2:20:01 AM): Name the guild that made you decide this is the loot system of choice.
xxx (2:21:00 AM): the person with the weakest piece of gear vying for the upgrade gets the loot, of course this will hold true only if they have proven themselves productive in the guild
xxx (2:22:02 AM): no guild has actually run this system, ive just dealt with dkp, epgp, and many similar systems like it that have made me decide this is the best approach to things
Janishta (2:22:30 AM): Ideally yes
Janishta (2:23:35 AM): If you want to run a guild and keep tabs on who has actually put in the effort and deserves/needs the loot most, go ahead. You're going to get a shitton of grumbling from the players who attend every raid and did their heroics.
xxx (2:23:36 AM): the way this would work though is those vying for the piece of loot post what they are currently wearing in raid chat and the decision is made according to who would need the piece the most
Janishta (2:24:17 AM): Something called reality has made me stop being an idealist.
xxx (2:24:42 AM): dkp and crap like it desroys guilds, causes drama
Janishta (2:25:16 AM): It depends on the members too
xxx (2:25:24 AM): ive seen atleast 6 guilds ripped apart over arguing about dkp, epgp an similar systems
Janishta (2:25:33 AM): Then those guilds failed
Janishta (2:26:14 AM): You'd think there's a REASON why guilds still use DKP/EPGP systems. If it really sucked so much, wouldn't all the DKP/EPGP guilds be disbanded and people flocking to "new age" guilds that use your ideal system?
xxx (2:27:22 AM): as i said, theyre clinging to old methods that really have no place in the game since the raid groups were downsized
Janishta (2:27:50 AM): On the contrary I think the smaller raid sizes have helped keep them alive
xxx (2:27:55 AM): these systems were perfect for 40 man raids because of the sheer size of each raids
Janishta (2:27:57 AM): There's less people vying for loot
xxx (2:27:59 AM): raid*
Janishta (2:28:13 AM): It's not so "THE RULES" anymore
Janishta (2:30:15 AM): I'm not saying everyone, but in JR there exists something called the officer override in which an officer decides someone should get the loot instead of whoever has the most dkp. This is done openly in raid chat and only with good reason. It's usually backed and agreed upon by the majority of the guild
Janishta (2:30:22 AM): But for the most part
Janishta (2:30:25 AM): people aren't douches.
Janishta (2:30:38 AM): If someone really wants something
Janishta (2:30:46 AM): or a piece of loot is a HUGE upgrade for them
Janishta (2:30:55 AM): then hell we'll pass so he can get it
Janishta (2:31:27 AM): As to the issue of guild hoppers and new members
Janishta (2:31:40 AM): We've had a core group for quite a while.
Janishta (2:31:59 AM): Our ability to cooperate and not raise drama or be selfish over loot has been tested over time
Janishta (2:32:16 AM): people who don't fit in/don't meet our requirements either gquit or are kicked.
Janishta (2:32:38 AM): Those that do are welcomed rather quickly imo and no drama arises.
Janishta (2:32:54 AM): I don't think it's the -BEST- system but we have class leads
Janishta (2:33:04 AM): From what I'm aware of
Janishta (2:33:13 AM): within each class the members are pretty close-knit
Janishta (2:33:31 AM): There's competition between classes, ie hunters and rogues/dps warriors
Janishta (2:33:57 AM): but it's really just not worth raising drama about.
Janishta (2:34:16 AM): Nobody is "alone" in the guild
Janishta (2:34:28 AM): Every other raider is not "against you"
xxx (2:35:28 AM): ive just seen so many meltdowns over number based loot systems, thats all
xxx (2:37:17 AM): the drama has left a ver bad taste in my mouth regarding them
xxx (2:37:24 AM): very*
Janishta (2:38:07 AM): You've got your fixed notions so I'm not going to keep ranting to a deaf wall. It works for JR, it works for our members, it has worked, when it stops working we'll adopt a new system out of necessity. We can all have our own views on loot systems, although I still don't get why your person bad experiences should mean that all guilds that aren't ideallistic in your eyes should be condemned. It's like saying the "A B C D" grading system should go because it doesn't differentiate between someone who got a 100% and a 89.5% but does 89.5% and 89.4%. I've had my GPA fucked over by 0.1% in the past, and so have many people, but I highly doubt it's gonna be changed.
On another note! I am back. The last month and a half has been very interesting, starting with wide-eyed oogling at the pretty Northrend zones (I wasn't selected for the beta, so it was all new for me,) playing around on my Death Knight, then a heavy levelling crunch to get to 80. I didn't level very fast, but I paced myself and levelled at a steady pace. I hit 80 in about 10 days, just in time to snag some gold from my guild's levelling contest. I skipped Sholazaar Basin after getting very lucky with finding Loque, and finally hit 80 on my last few quests in Storm Peaks.I could write a guide on where to level, but there's tons of guides like that as it is. All I'll say is this -- start in either Borean Tundra or Howling Fjord, then go to Dragonblight, and then Grizzly Hills. After that it's up to you whether you want to go to Sholazaar (it's like Un'goro) or Zul'Drak. Icecrown and Storm Peaks are also up to you, depending on whether you like dark blue or light purple landscapes.
There are some pretty awesome storylines that you'll see in LK, one culminating in a very nice cinematic. Along with this comes something else in WotLK - changing non-instance zones. You'll notice this most prominently in Storm Peaks and the Shadow Vault in Icecrown. As you complete quests, the NPCs and in some places also the scenery change to reflect your progression in the "story." It led to some confusion when I tried to meet up with guildies at one of these zones and she hadn't completed the quests up to where I was yet, though.
Storm Peaks also introduces the second "enter this zone and change into something else" type concept in an xpac, the first being the Dragonmaw Orcs in Shadowmoon Valley. This time you turn into a giant blue warrior lady.
Just as I did shortly after hitting 70, a few days after I became 80, I attended my first raid. What can I say? It's Naxx. My gear has changed a lot, and I now have but one piece of non-80 loot remaining: my cloak. I have gone from BC colours (green, brown, gold, and red) to Black and Gold. Things are changing -- I may be getting a new title soon.
p.s. as a response to my previous post - things are improving, depending on how you look at it. My 10-man group isn't motivated enough to knock our heads against Malygos more than a few attempts a week, and lord knows we're not gonna down him this way. But on the other hand, my gear is pretty decent now and is almost up to pre-Ulduar standards. Lag has been raping many guilds that raid during our times in Naxx, slowing our progress. I'm on pretty smooth terms with everyone in the guild now, though, and the folks who put me on standby the first week of 10 mans are now thankful for my DPS.
IGN: